and I've been thinking....
How well can you actually know someone? For all you know, that seemingly normal guy you work with could love being spanked by a monkey in a apron. Ok, so that would be funny, but you know what I mean.
I know this isn't a particularly groundbreaking subject, nor am I offering anything staggeringly insightful, but I can't help but wonder. Perhaps this screams of 'trust' issues on my part, but can you really go with your gut instinct about people? Most of the time I think you can, that's all you can do, but what happens if you're gut is wrong? How often have you been wrong about people? I mean, we all want to believe that people are good, and of course, most are. But does that need for good make us blind to some of the ugliness in people?
I guess the classic example is being in an unhealthy relationship. The good we look for in people also ties in with the happy ending we all want. Or rather, the happy ending most little girls are led to believe they should look for. Man, fuck Hollywood.The crap that is fed to us about Prince Charming and happy endings is seriously nauseating. BUT, having cursed the studios and projectile vomited on the notion of romance, I would like to add that I hold a bit of hope for some form of magic, however it may appear.
So, having recently had had a series of 'why get married' talks with friends, I am seriously coming closer to the decision that marriage is an unnecessary need in my life. Yes, I am now delving into something a little deeper than how well can you actually know someone, but here I go.
So I am now splashing into the pool of commitment and doing a bit of backstroke around the edge. Yes, it's all very nice, la-di-da (I don't know why I am doing a pool analogy but let's stick with it). So, I'm swimming around quite happily, not getting my hair wet when BHAM, I'm supposed to get married. Why? To show a higher form of commitment to someone? To say, I choose you to 'spend the rest of my life with'? Hmmmmm. I get out of the pool. I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as 'the one'. Whoever made that up has a lot to answer for, and should probably be paper cut all over their body with a bunch of Hallmark Valentine's Day cards. There are people who come into your life and if the timing is right (plus a bunch of other things) you get together. But life changes, as do people and it must take a hell of a lot of work to stay on the same path as someone for 10, 20, 30 odd years. I look at the person I was 5 years ago, and while I will essentially always have the same characteristics, a lot of me isn't the same. So when you get married, you're basically saying I'm going to do my best to stick with you - this is all you can do. So why do you have to get married to make that 'ultimate' commitment to someone? Surely it's the same promise to someone, based on the same principles, the same intensity of love and meaning whether you're married or not? Just without the presents, cake and expensive party.
Does anyone feel the need to change my mind?
P.S before I get any emails, no, I am not going out with someone. No, I don't have anyone I mistrust in my life, this post is just based on a collection of recent thoughts on public transport, conversations and natural cynicism.
Amen.
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At the risk of sounding repetitive might I just say "Amen" once again.
I could not agree with you more Ness. Though I do think your opinion is skewed a tad more on the negative than mine in regards to finding someone you are happy to hang out with for the rest of your life, I do agree that marriage is really a christian tool that has somehow become a standard of western culture.
I would rather have a happy healthy life with someone where we swing and hang out with spankadelic apron wearing monkeys (nice image by the way) than be shackled to a piece of paper I signed 20 years ago...
My piece is said.
I agree that marriage contracts are more about the control of proprty rights and women than love and emotional commitment, but the christians hardly have a monopoly on mawwidge. Just about every religious and cultural group has their own version of "'til death do you part". I asked somone to marry me once. Luckily we never got around to actually doing it - we just shacked up for thirteen years. I agree with you Ness, if two people are lucky enough to grow together and "fit" together despite those inevitable changes we all go through in life, then they don't need the stamp of approval from the gumbiment and/or the(insert least irrelevant denomination) church.
It's time you got a pushbike mate. That way you'll spend more time trying to survive the daily commute and far less time thinking... that's not to say I don't enjoy these D&M posts.
I don't disagree that marriage isn't solely a christian concept, but the generally accepted version of said stamp in western culture is largely derived form the christian custom wouldn't you agree?
Whatever the case I do agree that the stamp of approval is becoming less and less relevant as people step out from the shadow of the 'mass mind' and begin structuring plans and directions in life that work FOR them, rather than being dictated to by pieces of early fiction.
Having said that though if someone decides marriage is something that works for them and is a necessity in their commitment because it works FOR them. Then who am I to rubbish it... ?
Rant over.
And I have no idea why that last post has an all new profile name...? What the hell...
Perhaps god has decided to play with my computer as payback for my blasphemous posting...
No argument there Stew - I agree that the system used in Oz and the UK is derived from Judeo-Christian culture and customs. I was just making the point that the motivation behind the contractual arrangement is all about control rather than commitment and that it's a world-wide phenomena not peculiar to Western/Christian cultures.
Yes one must be careful. We don't want any smiting, its not a nice way to go by all accounts.
Thu the sweet embrace that the 1970's punk movement brought to your small blue marble in space is still revered and commercialised to this day.
Control of the uncontrollable.
No. I do no wish to be smote. Nosirree... now being eating by a bear that has ninja skills and robot arms... now that's a way to go!!
I like this discussion!
Do you think it's sad though that we are slowly loosing all types of traditions - whether it be that of our heritage or the notion of marriage and forever? Are we turning into a society of non traditionalists. Is that bad? What will we have left? What will we preserve?
But where would the world be V2 if all we did was cling to traditions and protect old buildings?
Is it bad that we progress and discard things that are felt to be no longer needed or useful?
I'll stick my hand up right now as having a bias towards the notion of happily ever after... but I would prefer to be that way and potentially alone with my special dog MONO (like the irony in the title) than to feel stuck in a situation because I wrote my name on a piece of paper.
Hmm.. I think I'm going around in circles...
I don't think you need wory about this particular institution waning to become some quaint and obscure tradition followed by weird christian cultists Ness. You've only got to cruise past the churches and gardens on any given Saturday here in Adelaide to see the kiddies lining up to sign on the dotted line. If you'd asked me ten years ago if I thought marriage was on the way out I would've answered with an emphatic YES! but I was wrong. People do cling to tradition for all sorts of reasons and the wedding industry is massive... ooops there I go slipping into the cynical again.
Oooh... is that true? Cos my understanding is that weddings (statistically) where on the decline...?
Though I could be wrong. I do know people are ding it later in life when they are doing it though.
And then they get divorced within the first seven years (generally)
Ah... marketing. Such a useless statistical smorgasbord....
You like smorgasbords don't you Nessie?
No doubt you're right Dances, I'm always making outlandish claims based on personal observation rather than researched fact. But I do think that there are a lot of women in the 30 - 40 age bracket who have put mawwidge and all that other stuff on hold for a career. so that doesn't discount the possibility that the institution and its contractual obligations are still held dear by many but one half of the party has stayed away. And let’s face it, most blokes are way too immature at 30 to face up to the responsibilities of a mawwidge contract, so it's probably a good thing the girls have put things on hold. I was listening to a discussion between three professional women and the (male) announcer on 891ABC* last night and they were lamenting the scarcity of decent "blokes" and citing that as the main reason for staying off that particular merry-go-round. One of girls actually said "I refuse to go out on a date with a man who uses more product in his hair than me."
* Yes, I listen to AM ABC local radio as well as radio national (but only when I'm driving), so I guess that makes me really old.
Hmmm now you're straying into my personal peeve zone.
I'm 31 and more than capable of getting married and making it work IF there where any women out there that had 2 simple things in tow
1. A brain in her head. The ability to hold a conversation beyond her shoes or what's happening in the shit rags is something women have lost the ability and wit to do.
2. Self confidence. It IS ok to be yourself. Not EVERYONE has to love you 'girlfriend' (and PS you're not all black/latino nor should you be let the black/latinos do it ok by themselves)
No one cares if women are wanting a career anymore (wasn't that resolved before I was even born!), but don't complain when the scraps left on the table are stale and crusty and a bit smelly.
Or open your eyes to the guys inner beauty (fuck sounding all Oprah now) you know just cos he's not built like a CK model doesn't mean he's not got some charm when you have little dig at the sandpit he's playing in.
And thus my analogy quota for the day has been reached...
PS: If this comes across a little hostile, then my full apologies, I'm just tired of hearing about how hopeless we 30ish men are...
Once again I was speaking from personal experience and perspective (re the relative maturity of the sexes). I'm in my mid-forties and still haven't grown up :).. And I meant to say "up to the age of 30" - sorry "Stew"... but I don't apologise for saying that guys in their 20's are just overgrown kids in my opinion.
The women discussing men (among many other topics) on the radio all had brains and didn't strike me as the least bit interested in shoes or the shit rags, although the they did bag some of the recent fashions such as "cut off leggings" or something like that and "high waistlines" - all of which went over my head. My point is that the girls weren't bagging boys in general, but the self involved showponies* who are more interested in their own appearance and life than holding an intelligent conversation with the person they're with - and finding out more about that person. The use of "" around "blokes" was intentional but obviously didn't carry the inflection and meaning that was intended by me and given by the speaker on the radio. She was lamenting the exact situation that you are Dances...
I don't get out much, apart from to see the occasional band, or music festival (BDO etc). Leading such a sheltered existence, I'm not exposed to the horrendous experiences with the opposite sex that you describe.
*No offence intended to any Showponies reading this, of course :)
Thanks for correcting Stew's massive generalisation about the lack of women with:
"1. A brain in her head. The ability to hold a conversation beyond her shoes or what's happening in the shit rags is something women have lost the ability and wit to do so"....
Are you freakin serious? Are these the women whose only ambitions are to get married, master the perfect sponge and exist only to please a man. Don't even go there 'boyfriend'.
I don't think women are that picky about 'the scraps on the table'? Correct me if I am wrong though.
I think it's more about both females and males looking past the aesthetic and realising that while physical attraction is definitely important and unless you have a front bum and smell like sulphur, it's about being the best of friends over anything else. I think, and I hope, that you realise this after the age of 25.
You've taken my post completely wrong (yet in true female fashion not unexpectedly)
I make the point that whether anyone likes to recognise it or not, single white males have as much problem coping with the relationship wagon as does all the other races and the opposite sex. Yet far too often for my liking we get demonised in the media and magazines. Sure there are always exceptions, plenty of playboys out there who do cause a lot of heartache. But there's also plenty of headcase women who don't think beyond themselves when entering a relationship.
And yes V2 I do understand what a relationship is about. But hard to make friends with someone when you can't respect or talk to them because they don't meet the 2 points I made....
Or am I just asking too much like most men ?
A couple of points:
Stew, I know what you’re trying to say and no doubt you do feel aggrieved at the way certain sections of the media, be they commentators, identities or “personalities”, tar all men of a certain demographic with the same brush. However, I don’t think there’s any other way of interpreting your post. The implication is clear: you believe there are very few if any available women (at least in the circles you move) that have 1. a brain in their head and 2. self confidence. If this isn’t what you actually meant, maybe you should go back and edit your post... but then again maybe you’re just spoiling for a fight....” You've taken my post completely wrong (yet in true female fashion not unexpectedly)”... them’s fightin words if I ever seen ‘em! And I’m not going to enter into a protracted debate over the obvious implication that the female half of our species has a propensity for misinterpretation of our (men’s) words. I can however, vouch for their ability to recall every argument that ever took place (personal experience again).
My second point : Yes, V2 you’re so right, “it's about being the best of friends over anything else.” Once again, this is anecdotal, but I’ve just witnessed two of my closest friends hook up after knowing each other almost since high school (they’re both late 30’s). Everyone’s immediate reaction on being told the joyous news was, “Well, it’s about f*ckin time!” or words to that effect. They’ve been best friends for years and that was the basis for going that ‘one step further’ in their relationship. It’s early days yet, but I reckon they’re in for the long haul. Even if they don’t last, at least they’ve given it a go. And they’ve got a better chance than most couples who meet at the pub and start going out knowing almost nothing about each other. I’m starting to move outside my area of expertise here – I’ve only been on about three dates in my life and they were over 20 years ago. So I’ll shut up now.
Ok. Anon is correct in that this seems to be turning into a more of an argument tinged commentary than what I really intended. But for the record I stand by my comments however readers choose to interpret them. I can only comment based on my experiences.
I no longer believe there is a 'one' out there and the sadly the 'magic' has been stripped away from any future relationships which I feel I will be unable to view with anything short of wariness. Also sadly I know of quite a few of my male friends who feel the same.
I like to think that I have learned a few lessons so far, especially in taking things the wrong way. So much so, that would I go as far to say I now know how to take things the right way. I know females are renowned for taking things the wrong way, and yes, I've been one of those on more than one occasion. But the beauty of hurt, pain and love is that you get smarter and hopefully not too cynical or damaged along the way. So much so, that when 'the one', the 'you'll do for the time being' or fembot comes along, you're better equipped to do everything that you had wished you had done years ago with the person that counts in the present.
The media does a bad job of portraying most people as horrid generalisations of their gender, race and religion and I don't think we should dwell on that. Surely we should give more credit to people for not believing it in the first place. I like to think that people aren't as dumb as I fear.
Anyway, can I perhaps throw a spanner in the works and ask if finding 'the one' is really that important anyway? Sure companionship is nice, but being happy and complete with yourself is surely just as good while you're waiting?
Can I also just add I wholeheartedly and completely recognise that when I look back at what I wrote about having 'learned some lessons along the way' I will cringe with embarrassment because I totally appreciate that despite feeling slightly wiser at 26, still know jack shit about life.
Oh, and by looking back, I'm rocking in some Ezi-Boy chair waiting for Days of Our lives to be beamed into my living room....so yeah, um old, or maybe just sometime next year.
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